The Right Way to Talk to People About Your Business - Indie Hackers Podcast

Indie Hackers Podcast episode #154: "The Right Way to Talk to People About Your Business with Rob Fitzpatrick, Author of The Mom Test"

Life Context

I've recently been working on prototyping + brainstorming for an app idea (Idea - Spontaneous Plans). On the day I listened to this podcast, I was about to go for a long-ish walk, and I wanted to listen to an Indie Hackers podcast episode because I haven't listened to one in a while.

See the section below about ChatGPT to see how I selected this episode.

What I got out of listening to this episode

This was a high-impact episode.

The biggest takeaway: Talk to real potential users/customers before investing so much time into creating something.

I've been building a prototype for my idea, and I have talked to basically no one about the idea. That's bad, because the people who I would want to use my app are... people. While working on the idea, I've found myself often asking myself the same questions over and over again: mainly, is this actually an app that people would use?

My most likely plan in my mind has been to build the prototype, and then test it out by being the user of it and, since it's a social app, engaging with other people on it and seeing if other people like it.

I still think that's a semi-valid approach.

But this podcast episode gave me a reality check. I should really talk to other people about their behavior related to my idea. Because it might tell me that there really isn't a need for the app. Or, better, it might make me more confident that it could be useful to people. But I don't gain any of that if I don't talk to people about it.

A core piece of advice from the episode was to approach these discussions indirectly. Rather than pitching your app idea to someone, you should ask them the questions you really need to know. If you phrase it as a pitch (even just mentioning that it's an app idea you're working on), their answers will probably become skewed in your favor, because they don't want to discourage you. I don't think this would be the case 100% of the time, but it makes a lot of sense to me. You want to have someone's genuine answer.

For example, for Idea - Spontaneous Plans, the thing I really need to ask people is: "Do you use Partiful for same-day plans ever? Or would you use a groupchat instead? Would you ever post plans to your Instagram story?". If 100% of the people I talk to about this say, "Yeah, Partiful is absolutely adequate for this", then maybe I need to re-think my approach for this idea, or scrap it entirely in favor of something that is a more important problem to solve.

The episode makes a big point to make sure to ask the hardest questions, and to have a mindset of trying to unveil what would be the worst possible answer for you ("The thing I least want to ask is probably the most important question."). So, for example, it could be scary for me to ask some of the questions above, because it could mean that my efforts on this idea are a waste. But I should try as hard as possible to determine what people's existing behavior is. It's really an ideal result to find out as early as possible if your idea is simply not needed or not important to people, or even counter-productive to people, so you can spend your efforts on something more likely to succeed and be useful.

At the same time, I had moments while listening to this where I was thinking the advice is a little sad. I'm more used to hearing advice like, don't give up on your idea! Work hard! Push forward even if you feel doubts! But I suppose this episode's advice isn't directly contradicting that -- it's just telling you to make sure you're putting your energy where it will serve best. If your goal is to make a successful app/business, then it makes sense to put your efforts into something likely to do well. It's a bit of a different mindset than making a toy project just for fun. And I do in fact want to make a successful app/business, though I am also fine with converting something like this current idea into just a toy project that was fun to work on.

Still, though, this episode made me realize I should really be having these conversations to understand people's social behavior. I know my own social behavior, and I know that I want to use the idea I am making, but it doesn't mean other people will.

I used ChatGPT to find this episode

Throughout working on my app idea (codenamed "Spont" or "Pulse"), I've been asking ChatGPT questions here and there about certain aspects of the idea.

So I asked ChatGPT this:
What are the five biggest questions on my mind about pulse/spont

And it gave me a pretty good answer which reflected the biggest things that have been on my mind about it.

Here are the questions:

1. Is Pulse actually solving a real problem, or just repackaging existing tools? ... The core uncertainty is whether the missing thing is a product, or a social norm.
2. What is the correct onboarding and notification model? ... You seem convinced that spontaneous coordination only works if notifications are immediate and reliable, but you're worried that the mechanisms that make that possible also feel spammy or create too much friction.
3. What is the actual social primitive? ... You often seem dissatisfied whenever the concept starts looking too much like traditional event planning.
4. Can the network effects ever get started? ... Many social products die before reaching that state, and you seem very aware of that risk.
5. If it succeeds, what is the business? (((in terms of financials))) ... You seem comfortable building before knowing the answer, but you're not fully comfortable ignoring it either.

Then, I asked ChatGPT:
Suggest me episodes of the indie hacker podcast that relate to these questions (be specific about why you're picking them)

And it gave me a bunch of suggestions of episodes to listen to.

I really like this use of AI. I'm using it to make a broad search for real human content, but leveraging natural language and a large-scoping conversation to drive that search. Without ChatGPT, I suppose I could have searched Google for episodes related to these questions, but I really am not sure if the results would be as good. At the same time, I acknowledge that ChatGPT's answer may be biased or not really the perfect results. But still, what really matters to me is that it's redirecting me to the real human content which I can get real value out of.

The top result it picked was this episode - #154. It said "Best fit for your biggest question: “Is this a real problem or just a product-shaped fantasy?" and that felt like a question I really needed to answer.

More notes I took about the episode

• Talking to customers can save you months of coding eg you realize some feature isn't needed or should be done some other way

• As an indie hacker it's important not to waste time on an idea you're not sure is gonna work

  • ?? Not sure I like this... But maybe true. If I'm spending my free time, could be better to do it on a definite problem that will definitely have customers. But also I think the point is, have discussions w ppl first to make sure you're solving a real problem

• Talking to ppl early means you'll have early users to test it.

• In early conversations -- DON'T pitch your idea. Find some other reason to ask them your question

  • inexperienced founders may be overconfident in their ideas. Need to get it out of just their head and see if it fits in the real world
  • starting with a direct pitch to someone will make them lie more to you rather than a genuine answer. Compliments / ego-driven lies. Get to the core of their actual behavior.
  • to directly ask if your idea is good, puts emotional burden on the other person. Putting the responsibility of truth on them - it should be on you(me) to find the truth of the idea's viability out of the behavior you learn from them
  • if you start with side-angled questions, and then feel like you might want to actually pitch, be aware of the person's comfort. They may not be open to being pitched to, and in that case, stop. Can directly ask them "would it be ok if i pitch something im working on related to what we've been talking about"

• When talking to someone, if they are being vague (or you just want them to explain more), push, like "tell me how that works", get them talking more

• Want to have almost an anti-sales mindset during the discovery phase. TRY to get them to say no. You want to dig up the reasons why your thing won't work or isn't good. (Or, become very confident that it is good). You don't want to fish for compliments or be annoying because then they will lie to you

• Ask yourself "what's the scariest thing possible / what's the worst thing they could tell me" and then actively search that out (at the appropriate time). "The thing I least want to ask is probably the most important question."

  • I feel this applies to dating as well -- the hardest questions are probably the most important ones ultimately. Though, certainly not all questions should be asked right away.

• Going to a meetup just to swap business cards but never actually set up a call... Instead, ask your questions while there, make use of the time

• Talk to the ppl who are low hanging fruit first. Who you already know or are connected to or like hanging out with.

• If it feels hard to do something and it's making you miserable, find a way to do it that's easier / feels better.

  • again, advice that can apply to many areas of life.
  • Echos the advice in Hank Green Tells Me To Fall Downhill

• Venture/investors approach - could spend 4 yrs working on something without reward and then it fails. With indie hacking, you get to choose what your days are like, who you spend time with.